For the last 5,000 years, empires ruled the world — Rome administered hundreds of languages across three continents, and the Ottomans governed Christians, Jews, and Muslims under a single legal canopy. The nation-state as we know it is barely a century old for most of the world's population. In 1900, maybe 25 percent of humanity lived under nation. Today, 99 percent live in nation-states — and almost all of them were created in a single, compressed rush after 1945. And this world order could already be giving way to the next. Amazon has a larger GDP than most countries, the Bitcoin network operates outside any central bank's reach, and a 19-year-old with a smartphone can reach more people than most governments. The monopoly is gone. The question is what replaces it.

Today’s guest is Rana Dasgupta, author of After Nations. We trace how different nations came into existence and the reasons their nations formed the way they did. France built its national identity through theology, Britain through property, the United States through law, and China through controlling its massive rivers and sidestepping local rulers in the process. We see why all four models are now straining under the weight of planetary problems no border can contain. The post-1945 liberal order wasn't the natural culmination of history but a brief, unusual window of stability between eras of great-power competition. The question isn't whether the nation-state will survive, but what forms of citizenship, governance, and legitimacy can be invented to replace the functions it can no longer perform. If the last great transition produced the nation, the next one will have to produce something we don't yet have a name for.

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