danzingfool commented on Saturday, February 9, 2008 at 10:42PM
Cool question. Well, I personally don't feel a need to discredit Mary. I really love many aspects of the Catholic faith although I was raised nondenominational charismatic. It has meant much to me to discover the traditional and liturgical side of the faith during my adult years. My favorite poetry is that of the Medieval Mystic Nuns and Monks, and I have been very inspired by their lives as well.
All that to say, or admit rather, that the Catholic beliefs about Mary are probably the ones I am least comfortable with. I mean, whether or not the wine turns to blood or there's a purgatory or people should say their confession to priest, I'm open to any of those possibilities. I think the thing that makes me most uncomfortable with the beliefs about Mary is that I wonder if it leads Catholics to pray and worship in a way that will not be profitable. Jesus says that no man comes to the Father but by Him and that He makes intercession to God on our behalf, and so it concerns me that Catholics,(if I understand correctly) pray to Mary to intercede to God on their behalf. I just don't see it in the Bible anywhere that this could possibly work. On the other hand, I do see God as abounding in grace and mercy, so I don't exclude the possibility that He might just hear our prayers even if they are sent to Him indirectly, especially if they are from a pure heart.
So anyway, I would never want to discredit Mary. Clearly, she is the greatest and most honored woman who ever lived. If there are Protestants discrediting Mary, it's probably just an overreaction to some of the Catholic practices and beliefs concerning Mary that we cannot find in scripture. It comes back to the classic differentiation between Protestant and Catholic. Protestants believe the Word only and Catholics believe the Word and the Church Traditions. For me personally, I feel Protestants have been far to quick to throw out tradition. On the other hand, if I feel that tradition actually goes against the Word of God, then I guess I am still Protestant enough that I will always side with the Biblical viewpoint.
Nun2Be commented on Sunday, February 10, 2008 at 10:40AM
When a Catholic prays to Mary or to a saint, it is no different than I asking you to pray for me. A lot of times where Protestants get confused is that they are stuck on the belief that saints along with Mary are just dead people, and that's that. However, Catholics believe that saints including Mary are alive in Christ; that they are in heaven with Christ. We know from the book of Revelations, that saints pray to God and God hear their prayers...when the angel takes the censure of incense [the incense being the prayers of the saints] and flings it to the earth; we know that those prayers affect us on earth. Another thing, neither a saint nor Mary can bring us salvation, only God can do that...going off of the one-mediator-ness, that is in regards to salvation and the only person who can mediate between God on that matter of salvation is Christ...just a side note, Catholics know just as well as Protestants, that they can easily go straight to God when they pray, but Catholics know that Protestants go and ask each other to pray for themselves [which in the eyes of many Catholics seems a little hypocritical]…but logically if we are allowed to ask each other to pray for ourselves, then it should not be strange to ask a saint to pray for us as well.
danzingfool commented on Sunday, February 10, 2008 at 01:54PM
I enjoyed reading your view on it, and it does help to clarify things. I will look more into the scriptures you mentioned in Revelation. I have no doubt that you have a pure heart, and that you are doing this as you explained.
On the other hand, I think part of the confusion is that less well instructed Catholics than yourself do seem to worship the saints. I have seen this first hand. My husband's family is Catholic, and the thing that has always seemed odd to me is that they always pray to and talk about saints, but they never pray to or talk about Jesus. In fact, they live in Lebanon and their is a big statue of Mary in their village of Aabra and they actually pray to or swear by "Mary of Aabra" which always alarmingly strikes me as praying to and swearing in the name of the statue itself. I've heard of similar beliefs in South America. I wonder sometimes if the former paganism of those countries seeps back into their religion. This probably has nothing to do with the church or what the priests are actually teaching, but it does seem to happen. I'm sure all denominations have pockets of followers out there who make them look bad, but in this case I think it does add to the confusion. I did allow my children to take flowers to Mary and throw kisses to her with their cousins. They thought it was cool. I did think the focus on Mary seemed out of balance, though. As long as Christ remains the center and focus of our faith and our worship, then I don't have any problem with what you explained.
I personally have such great and personal experience communing directly with God and Christ, that it's hard for me to imagine using some sort of intermediary. I do ask for prayer from friends sometimes, but that does not replace my personal petitions to God. I hope it is the same with you and the saints. Talking directly to God and actually sensing a reply is a very rewarding experience, and I hope that you have had an opportunity to experience that as well.
Nun2Be commented on Sunday, February 10, 2008 at 02:51PM
I can actually help clarify a little more...personally I have never heard of Mary of Aarba, and I doubt that this Mary is condoned by the Church, very few apparitions are actually. The only time I ever see flowers or such given to Mary, is during a May Crowning where a crown of flowers are placed on a statue of Mary's head, and it is not because we think that Mary is in the statue or anything like that, but it is a symbol of the beauty of Mary's maternity, sort of like a little mother's day celebration for Mary. Saints were people who lived extraordinary lives for Christ; they devoted their entire lives to the service of Christ. For example, St. Catherine of Siena was born of nobility and was given all the pleasures of the world. However, she refused all riches and worldly desires to give herself to Christ and to live a life of constant prayer and solitude. St. Dominic, who started the Dominican Order, literally walked wherever he went, and would refuse coaches [unless it be to other countries]. As he would walk he would constantly preach scripture and the gospels and really nothing else. St. Therese of Liseux lived a life of great simplicity and patience and it was her life mission to do every act, most especially the smallest of acts, out of great love for God. Catholics look at the lives of saints as models of how to live their lives; with great simplicity, patience, prayer, and most importantly an immense love for God and scripture. Don't get me wrong, it is equally if not more important to look at the way Christ live His life, but one also has to take into account that Christ was perfect, and the saints were not perfect. Thus, it is a wonderful gift to be able to see saints, who in reality were no different that you or me, live their lives to the fullest for Christ. I do not know the Catholics that you spend time with, but with experience as a Catholic, I spend far more time praying to Christ than to any saint, in fact, it is once in a great while that I pray to a saint...also, though it may not outwardly appear that a Catholic is not praying or talking about Christ, actually a Catholic is more prone to go into solitude for prayer; to find a quiet place away from the business of the world to pray to Christ or to God and so that they are able to more fully pray to God or to Christ. Another thing is, is that the Mass is a giant prayer to God. If prayer is a God is a conversation with God, then if you look at the mass, there is the first reading from scripture which is God speaking to us through the Word, then we respond to God with a Psalm, another reading is read which is God replying through the Word and in response, there is the Alleluia [except during Lent, then it is just the Thanks be to God] and then a reading from one of the Gospels is read, and that is once again God speaking through the Word to us....then after the homily or sermon by the priest, are the petitions to God...so the mass, which is the core of the Catholic devotional life, does not include saints at all or Mary. I will agree with you on the matter that not every Catholic is as educated on the faith as someone like me, who spends a considerable amount of time studying the faith. My personal theory on that, is that due to Vatican II with all of the sudden changes which took place, it was difficult for Catholics to readjust to the Church, but for about the past 25 years there has been a great emphasis for Catholics to learn and study their faith; it was instituted by John Paul II and Benedict is, as I am starting to see, taking measures for Catholics to become more aware and educated about their faith. Just to comment on your last note, a lot of Catholics send their petitions strait to God, and they typically ask the saints [and other people,, like their friends or family] to pray for them also...still in the end the only person who is being prayed to is God.
danzingfool commented on Sunday, February 10, 2008 at 03:58PM
I actually have a poem by St. Catherine of Sienna framed in my house. I also really like Theresa of Avila (not sure if she achieved sainthood) and St. John of the Cross.
Here's a question for you along those lines. I did look more at the verse you mentioned in Revelation and many other verses concerning saints in the New Testament. When I read those verses I understand the word "saints" to mean all of the followers of Christ. It seems in the epistles, Paul uses the word "saints" interchangably with the church or the followers of Christ. When you read them do you think only of those who achieved "sainthood" by the Catholic Church or all the saints who followed Christ, or is there a standard you use to distinguish between the two types of saints?
Nun2Be commented on Sunday, February 10, 2008 at 04:36PM
Teresa of Avila is a saint....
There is a differentiation of the terms....when think of saints such as St. Catherine or St. Teresa, those are called Canonized saints because they are "officially" in heaven [canon law gets complex here, I will try to explain it clearer in the future]...then typically when a person thinks of a saint, it is a person who is in heaven, canonized or not...but in light to the Epistle of St. Paul, when he uses the term saint, he is referring to all followers of Christ as saints, so in a sense we are all saints....when the term saint is used in Revelation, the meaning tends to lean closer to those who are in heaven, and that is why I used Revelation as an example for showing interaction between God, saints, and living people....
All that to say, or admit rather, that the Catholic beliefs about Mary are probably the ones I am least comfortable with. I mean, whether or not the wine turns to blood or there's a purgatory or people should say their confession to priest, I'm open to any of those possibilities. I think the thing that makes me most uncomfortable with the beliefs about Mary is that I wonder if it leads Catholics to pray and worship in a way that will not be profitable. Jesus says that no man comes to the Father but by Him and that He makes intercession to God on our behalf, and so it concerns me that Catholics,(if I understand correctly) pray to Mary to intercede to God on their behalf. I just don't see it in the Bible anywhere that this could possibly work. On the other hand, I do see God as abounding in grace and mercy, so I don't exclude the possibility that He might just hear our prayers even if they are sent to Him indirectly, especially if they are from a pure heart.
So anyway, I would never want to discredit Mary. Clearly, she is the greatest and most honored woman who ever lived. If there are Protestants discrediting Mary, it's probably just an overreaction to some of the Catholic practices and beliefs concerning Mary that we cannot find in scripture. It comes back to the classic differentiation between Protestant and Catholic. Protestants believe the Word only and Catholics believe the Word and the Church Traditions. For me personally, I feel Protestants have been far to quick to throw out tradition. On the other hand, if I feel that tradition actually goes against the Word of God, then I guess I am still Protestant enough that I will always side with the Biblical viewpoint.
On the other hand, I think part of the confusion is that less well instructed Catholics than yourself do seem to worship the saints. I have seen this first hand. My husband's family is Catholic, and the thing that has always seemed odd to me is that they always pray to and talk about saints, but they never pray to or talk about Jesus. In fact, they live in Lebanon and their is a big statue of Mary in their village of Aabra and they actually pray to or swear by "Mary of Aabra" which always alarmingly strikes me as praying to and swearing in the name of the statue itself. I've heard of similar beliefs in South America. I wonder sometimes if the former paganism of those countries seeps back into their religion. This probably has nothing to do with the church or what the priests are actually teaching, but it does seem to happen. I'm sure all denominations have pockets of followers out there who make them look bad, but in this case I think it does add to the confusion. I did allow my children to take flowers to Mary and throw kisses to her with their cousins. They thought it was cool. I did think the focus on Mary seemed out of balance, though. As long as Christ remains the center and focus of our faith and our worship, then I don't have any problem with what you explained.
I personally have such great and personal experience communing directly with God and Christ, that it's hard for me to imagine using some sort of intermediary. I do ask for prayer from friends sometimes, but that does not replace my personal petitions to God. I hope it is the same with you and the saints. Talking directly to God and actually sensing a reply is a very rewarding experience, and I hope that you have had an opportunity to experience that as well.
Here's a question for you along those lines. I did look more at the verse you mentioned in Revelation and many other verses concerning saints in the New Testament. When I read those verses I understand the word "saints" to mean all of the followers of Christ. It seems in the epistles, Paul uses the word "saints" interchangably with the church or the followers of Christ. When you read them do you think only of those who achieved "sainthood" by the Catholic Church or all the saints who followed Christ, or is there a standard you use to distinguish between the two types of saints?
There is a differentiation of the terms....when think of saints such as St. Catherine or St. Teresa, those are called Canonized saints because they are "officially" in heaven [canon law gets complex here, I will try to explain it clearer in the future]...then typically when a person thinks of a saint, it is a person who is in heaven, canonized or not...but in light to the Epistle of St. Paul, when he uses the term saint, he is referring to all followers of Christ as saints, so in a sense we are all saints....when the term saint is used in Revelation, the meaning tends to lean closer to those who are in heaven, and that is why I used Revelation as an example for showing interaction between God, saints, and living people....